The Hyper Racer - a small racing vehicle.

Controversy corner.

When is a lap record, a lap record ?

Below are a series of emails that may be of interest to our readers regarding Dean Crooke's Oran Park lap record.
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On 28/11/2007, at 2:07 PM, Graeme Williams wrote:

It is not an official lap record. Lap records are only recorded at CAMS permitted race meetings on CAMS licenced tracks. As this was a AASA meeting it is not a lap record.
Regards,
Graeme Williams.
(For those that don't know, Graeme is the CAMS Superkart Representitive)

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On 28/11/2007, at 3:04 PM, Heather Wallace wrote:

Good afternoon John
Further to our telephone conversation earlier today regarding lap records broken during racing events.
No matter who is the sanctioning body of an event, lap records are the intellectual property of the circuit running the event, as long as the vehicle complies with the category regulations of that event, is participating in a race and as at the Oran Park meeting at the weekend, is timed by an approved electronic timing system.
Regards,
HEATHER E. WALLACE
Manager: Administration/Corporate
Winton Motor Raceway Pty. Ltd.
Phone: +61 3 5766 4235
Fax: +61 3 5766 4249
Email: heather@wintonraceway.com.au

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On 28/11/2007 at 3:12 PM, Jon Crooke wrote

I have spoken to both Oran Park and the AASA and have been informed by them that it is a lap record, as the track takes precedence over CAMS or the AASA. It may or may not be a CAMS recognized lap record, but it is THE Oran Park Rotax Max lap record as recognized by Oran Park, the AASA and the NSW Superkart Club who ran the meeting under AASA and in compliance with the CAMS Superkart Technical Regulations.
In the future when drivers, in Rotax Max, race at the Oran Park long circuit, the lap record they will be trying to knock off is 1:19.0954. They won't give a rats about what CAMS thinks.
Amazed and Amused
Jon Crooke
HYPER RACER

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On 28/11/2007, at 5:35 PM, Graeme Williams wrote:

As it says John it is a AASA lap record, for a starter it was not run under CAMS Superkart Technical Regulations as no CAMS permit was issued and the track was not licenced by CAMS. CAMS rules are copyrighted and are only applicable when used under a CAMS permit. You could have been running that 130cc barrel, and really any correspondence from the AASA is not worth the paper it is written on. You should take the time and read their rules then you will be really amazed and confused.
Regards,
Graeme Williams

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On 28/11/2007 at 5:56:10 PM, Jon Crooke wrote

Extract from the "Supplementary Rules" of the Australian Motor Racing Series Round 9.
1.5 ELIGIBLE VEHICLES
Vehicles must comply with the Sporting Rules for the category entered, as listed on page 1 of these supplementary rules. Superkarts must comply with the regulations as per the class in which the kart is competing (e.g. if the competitor is using an AKA licence, the superkart / driver combination must comply using the regulations for which the combination would usually compete).

Looks to me like it's the ORAN PARK lap record AND the AASA lap record but not the CAMS lap record. I think on balance, it's safe to call it the lap record.

Jon Crooke
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On 28/11/2007, at 6:07 PM, Graeme Williams wrote:

An I talking to myself, how can you comply with Regulations that you cannot use as they are copywrited, that paragraph that you quote does not mean a thing. Call it what you like, it is not an official lap record.
Regards,
Graeme Williams
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On 28/11/2007, at 6:22 PM, Ian Williams wrote:

Hi boys,

No Graeme you are not - but truth is no-one is listening. Give it a rest fellas. I have just been thru an AKA state championship with 200 children racing and they showed more appreciation and conciliation than anyone in this little tete a tete.

Jon, you know I am no Hyper fan , but from all of us competitors " well done".
Graeme, from all of us officials, wake up and simply feel the grass between your toes.

Yes it is a track record. The controlling body that sanctions events at that circuit is the AASA, and they recognise it. End of story. Simply because Graeme you do not recognise "them" , that does not make it go away. Do you recognise my senior officials license at Little Athletics Australia either, so likewise it is not up to you to say an age high jump record set by my daughter is not recognised as it is not a CAMS sanctioned body !! Give it a rest.

Ian Williams.
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On 28/11/2007, at 6:27 PM, Graeme Williams wrote:

Hi Ian,
I have admitted that it is a AASA lap record, so what's the problem, I just like to have a go at John because he leaves himself so open and takes the bait all the time.
Regards,
Graeme Williams.
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28 November 2007 6:35:17 PM, Jon Crooke wrote

Graeme, Graeme, Graeme.
I have never said that it was a CAMS lap record. Just THE lap record.
Jon Crooke
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On 28/11/2007, at 6:33 PM, Graeme Williams wrote:

Hey John,
You have forgotten to mention that you were flogged by a AKA QLD driver who bettered the lap times set by your driver. If he was faster how can you claim the lap record.
Regards,
Graeme.
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On 28 November 2007 8:21:50 PM, Jon Crooke wrote

Dean was the quickest of the drivers that ran in accordance with Clause 1.5 Eligible Vehicles in the Supp Regs on the weekend.
Dean's quickest time was 1:19.0954 in race 3 running on Maxxis HG3's.

David Brand did do a 1:18.4981, but was running illegal MG Yellows at the meeting and therefore the NSW SKC in accordance with the sup regs, does not recognize his lap times.

As for the use of the word flogged, I believe that the driver who probably did the flogging was the one who won 3 of the 4 races, at a track he had not seen before, driving on control compound tyres, and beat a driver who had already practiced on the track on the Friday and was on super sticky, and faster, MG Yellows.

Having said that, it must be made clear that David Brand is an innocent party in this, as he is an AKA driver and this was his first Superkart race meeting. He asked representatives of the club what tyre he should run and was told to run MG Yellows. David drove extremely well all day and I'm sure would have been a contender, even on the harder control tyre.

Jon Crooke
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29 November 2007 12:33:15 AM, Graeme Williams wrote:

Hi John,
So who said his tyres were illegal, it was a AASA meeting so you could run anything. He did the right thing and asked the Club and was told he could use MG Yellows, so it would be a bit hypocritical of the Club to not recognise his time. I was told it was not the Club only you that wouldn't recognise his time.
Regards,
Graeme.
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29 November 2007 12:36:58 AM, David Bellenger wrote:

John,
Give it a rest.
So your kid is a whiz kid. Who cares?
There are a lot of other whiz kids out there also they probably were just not at this event.
David Bellenger.
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29 November 2007 12:44:03 AM, Ben Bey wrote:

Gentleman,

Now may be a good time to discuss the possibility of introducing a “Control Tyre” for a “Control Class” namely the 125 Rotax Max.

Thereby every body can have a shot at a “Lap Record”.

It appears that some tracks favour Maxxis and other tracks favour Dunlop, therefore it makes sense for all the Rotax Max to be fitted with the same tyres. Nobody will have an advantage, it will come down to the driver.

This class is becoming dearer every year, and if we are going to carry extra sets of wheels & tyres of a different brand due to a particular track, it will add extra strain on the finances of a lot off people.

This is supposed to be an affordable entry class motor sport, but if we are forced to carry extra tyres to suite different tracks, if you want to be competitive, you can forget expanding the class.

As far as “Lap Records” are concerned, providing the Race Tracks own timing system is used, which should be calibrated by an authorized calibration service company like “Australian Calibration Services” who are accredited by Australian Standards, than there should be NO dispute in that lap time, regardless of WHO runs the race meeting. I do believe that the lap times are the “Intellectual property” of the particular track.
I believe the emphases would be on the TIMING DEVICE having a current calibration certificate.

In this particular instance I would even be inclined to David Brand a nod as he presented his kart as he would to an AKA meeting, and the fact that he was led astray with the wrong information regarding tyres.

Its about time we united our thinking on this class and stop the BULLSHIT bickering and come up with a UNITED SOLUTION.

Don’t let your own vested interest or agendas get in the way. This class is supposed to be controlled and let the best DRIVERS win, not the best KART.

Yours truly,
Ben Bey
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29 November 2007 8:02:00 AM, Jon Crooke wrote:

Graeme,
I think it would help if you read the sup regs. To clarify it for you, if the driver was running under a CAMS licence he must run CAMS technical spec rules. If he was running under an AKA licence he must run under AKA technical spec rules. Unfortunately it wasn't the club who told him to run Yellows, it was a club member in an unofficial capacity. Clinton Brown, the NSW SKC President has confirmed the lap record.

I would also like to clear up a point made by Ben Bey.
"In this particular instance I would even be inclined to David Brand a nod as he presented his kart as he would to an AKA meeting, and the fact that he was led astray with the wrong information regarding tyres."
Unfortunately for David, he also ran an illegal spec AKA kart, as Rotax under AKA must run Bridgestones, not MG Yellows.

Jon Crooke
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29 November 2007 10:17:40 AM, Graeme Williams wrote:

John,
Once again you have missed the main point, the Supp Regs cannot say that you have to run as per CAMS regulations as has been pointed out to you time and time again as they are "Copyrighted". This means that they can only be used at CAMS permited meetings and is the main reason that they were copyrighted.Why should CAMS who have put a lot of time, effort and money into these rules, give them to an organization that has put sweet FA into them. Until AASA write their own rules its a case of run what you brung. David Brand is in my opinion the lap record holder even if he wasn't wearing Hyper approved underwear.
Regards,
Graeme
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29 November 2007 10:27:26 AM, Jon Crooke wrote:

For god's sake Graeme, read the sup regs.
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On 29/11/2007, at 2:01 PM, John Pellicano wrote:

Jon

With no prejudice to you I have been following these emails with interest & it's apparent you have a propensity to spruike about your achievements at all costs - despite this being a mark of an entrepreneurial person with rosy colored glasses - please relax.

In the quest of fairness & objectivity to those in question I have given careful consideration to the facts on hand plus those you have conceded too & it is in my opinion that you didn't set the lap record, David Brand did, thus claiming this position is misleading & factually incorrect. You must consider the circumstance of the meeting in their entirety & not use snippets of information only that suit, to support your claims.

I am aware that your hinging point of debate is Davis Brands use of mg yellow's - but you used them as well & by all accounts went slower despite you claiming they are 2 sec a lap faster - in the event you had gone faster with the Yellows which lap time would you have flaunted ? I suspect the faster of the times given plenty of runners were using Yellow's.

Whilst you have stated David Brand is the innocent party here you have prompted him to ask fair questions to your claims & they should not be dismissed his points are valid, he was a formidable competitor just like you were. He may be rightfully pissed off at your actions.

We all had a great weekend & we were very appreciative of the efforts that were made by those who attended, especially those who traveled a long way. By enlarge the spirit of our sport was upheld so please don't take that away from us because we are planning on building on our possibilities with the AASA in NSW….let's not blow this out of proportion for the sake of "lap records".

In summary can I recommend to you to satisfy that insatiable appetite for self promotion, that you consider our Oran Park GP meeting mid next year for our first round of the NSW State Championship - this meeting will be under the sanction of Cams thus giving you, if you should achieve it, leave to claim the jewel you are looking for "the official Cams lap record".

Kind regards
John Pellicano.

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29 November 2007 3:19:09 PM, Jon Crooke wrote:

Hi John,

Facts are important here and they are as follows;

1. The sup regs stated that competitors must run the Driver/Kart combination that they would normally run under their category rules.
i.e. Superkart drivers under CAMS technical rules and Sprint Kart drivers under AKA technical rules.

2. CAMS rules permit 5 control tyres, BridgstoneYGK, Dunlop SL4 or SL6, Vega XSL, Maxxis HG and MG Red.

3 AKA rules permit 1 tyre only in the Rotax class, that being the Bridgestone YJC.

4. Dean Crooke ran in accordance with the sup regs in races 1 using the Dunlops, in races 2 and 3 using the Maxxis. Times set in these races are eligible for lap records. In race 4 he used the Illegal MG Yellows. Therefore his race 4 times are ineligible for a lap record. (we won't get into the subject of what running illegal tyres would do to the race results, as that would disqualify half the Max field)

5. David Brand did not run in accordance with sup reg in any races. He used MG Yellows in all 4 races. Therefore none of his lap times are eligible.

6. The fastest time of the meeting, in a vehicle that complied with your sup regs, was set by Dean Crooke in race 3.

7 As there is no faster time on record, it is fair to say that this is the lap record.

In relation to your observation that,
"you used them (MG Yellows) as well & by all accounts went slower despite you claiming they are 2 sec a lap faster"
Sunday was hotter than Saturday and the MG Yellows advantage was diminished. Dean found that despite this the MG Yellows were a better tyre.
It is undisputed in the AKA world that the MG Yellows are in a different world to the CAMS control tyres.
On a kart track they are around a second a lap faster. I'll let you do the math for a big track.

In relation to your observation that,
"in the event you had gone faster with the Yellows which lap time would you have flaunted ?"
Please John, I believe your a better man than that. A comment like that is demeaning and uncalled for.

In relation to your observation that,
"it's apparent you have a propensity to spruike about your achievements at all costs - despite this being a mark of an entrepreneurial person with rosy colored glasses"
I write the facts and only the facts. Interpret them as you will.

In relation to your observation that,
"He (David Brand) may be rightfully pissed off at your actions."
l have already spoken to David and he agreed that innocently and unbeknown to him he was on the wrong tyre and was in agreement that the lap record should go to Dean.

In relation to your observation that,
"to claim the jewel you are looking for "the official Cams lap record"
l don't give a rat's about the CAMS lap record, AASA lap record or the North Ringwood Primary School lap record.
Dean's got the one that counts, THE TRACK lap record.

Please read the following;
Further to our telephone conversation earlier today regarding lap records broken during racing events.
No matter who is the sanctioning body of an event, lap records are the intellectual property of the circuit running the event, as long as the vehicle complies with the category regulations of that event, is participating in a race and as at the Oran Park meeting at the weekend, is timed by an approved electronic timing system.
Regards,
HEATHER E. WALLACE
Manager: Administration/Corporate
Winton Motor Raceway Pty. Ltd.
Phone: +61 3 5766 4235
Fax: +61 3 5766 4249
Email: heather@wintonraceway.com.au

We'll read that again shall we,
"as long as the vehicle complies with the category regulations of that event, and is timed by an approved electronic timing system."
Looks like a lap record, smells like a lap record, CRIKEY, IT'S A LAP RECORD !!!

Jon Crooke
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On 01/12/2007, at 11:11 AM, Rolf Greve wrote:

Ladies & Gentlemen,

We have had a myriad of e mails and quotes published on several websites with regards to a lap record being claimed last week end at Oran park.

Please read this quote from the Hyperracer website:
"Second place was taken by a very impressive David Brand with Alan Dodge rounding out the top 3. David won the first heat and finished 2nd in the other three heats."

Now if David Brand was in fact included in the results, (which it appears he has) Claims Cannot be made he was on illegal rubber to be excluded from the "Lap record".

If no protest was lodged with regard to running MG Yellows, then David's lap must also stand.

ALL karts competed against each other as Superkarts, as thats how the category was promoted.

Here's a new quote: Congratulations to David Brand for setting a new lap record for Formula Rotax light at Oran Park.

Kindest regards.
Rolf Greve.
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1 December 2007 2:00:08 PM, Jon Crooke wrote:

Ladies and Gentlemen,

It is a fact that David Brand set the fastest time at the at the Oran Park, but he did it in a AKA Tag class kart, NOT a AKA Formula Rotax 125 class kart as Rolf Greve has suggested.

The TAG class is a multi engine (4) class that can run the faster compound MG Yellow tyre and as such cannot compete in the AKA Formula Rotax 125 class. The AKA Formula Rotax 125 class rules clearly state that only Bridgestone YGK are to be used.

As the meeting was for AKA Formula Rotax 125 class and CAMS 125NG Rotax Superkarts, and NOT for the TAG multi engine class karts, i.e. Biland, PDR, Rotax Max and Parilla Leopard, then an AKA TAG kart does not comply with the Sup Regs for the meeting.

Because of the relaxed and informal nature of the meeting, the other competitors were very happy for David Brand to run his TAG kart and collect any placings he achieved. But unfortunately, protest or no protest, he cannot claim the Superkart 125NG Rotax light lap record. If this was possible we would all be ignoring the rules and using MG Yellows at the next club meeting and we could all set new lap records. The reality is a 125NG Superkart lap record can only be set by a kart that complies with the regulations for 125NG Superkarts or in this case AKA Formula Rotax.

Although the track administration does not recognise lap records unless it is set by a vehicle that, and I quote Heather Wallace of the AASA, "complies with the category regulations of that event", I have suggested to David that he should make a claim for the unofficial AKA TAG lap record.

Here's yet another quote:
Congratulations to Dean Crooke for setting a new official lap record for Superkart 125NG - light
and
Congratulations to David Brand for setting a new unofficial lap record for TAG 125.

Jon Crooke
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1 December 2007 2:51:13 PM, Ian Williams wrote:

Jon,

Don't want to upset your applecart but
#1 the AKA TAG125 rules do not allow a Rotax Max engined kart to run MG Yellow tyres, they must run YJC Bridgestone
#2 at all times and in all AKA events a Rotax Max 125 must comply with its own class rules. When a driver enters in a TAG125 class event nothing changes for him.
#3 the AKA agreed at its last conference to move the Rotax Light class to MG Yellow tyres, and Rotax Heavy is still under investigation as to what it gets to replace the YJC Bridegstone.

In 2008 this will almost certainly change again , with a new distributor for the Rotax engine they will be looking at putting them on the MOJO tyres as used in Formula Rotax worldwide - so for your next test day I suggest you go get some of them to try.
Fact is your driver and David Brand ran karts that the circuit owners and race meeting organisers allowed, obviously as they were awarded "class" trophies at the end of it. To all of us casual observers it was simply a Rotax Max 125 engined class that no-one can certify complied with anyone's rules.

Question : Did your CAMS log book get an entry in it to say you were there on that date ???
Answer : If not, then you were not racing your CAMS accredited vehicle -- so definitely no CAMS class record was set.

A bit pedantic and pathetic on all sides Jon - next time you want some credit show up at a National Championship and have a crack with all the rules in place and enforced. And in your reading of the AKA and CAMS rules you need to look at it impartially, not from 20 miles over to one side.

End result - Rolf is right !!!!!

Regards, Ian Williams.

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2 December 2007 4:02:15 PM, Jon Crooke wrote:

Ian
Thanks for pointing that out. You are correct in your statement that "the 2007 AKA TAG125 rules do not allow a Rotax Max engined kart to run MG Yellow tyres, they must run YJC Bridgestone." And Formula Rotax may only run Bridgestone YJC
Extract from AKA manual
CHAPTER 44 - TAG 125
Tyres
Dry Weather Tyres: Rotax Max: Bridgestone YJC
Iame Leopard: MG Yellow
PRD Fireball Choice of: Bridgestone YJC,
MG Yellow, Maxxis HG3
Biland SA250 Choice of: Bridgestone
CHAPTER 28 - FORMULA ROTAX 125
28.06 Tyres
Dry weather tyres Bridgestone YJC

Therefore you cannot race a Rotax 125 max Kart on MG Yellows in - AKA Formula Rotax, AKA TAG or Superkart 125NG classes.
As there are no other Rotax MAX classes run anywhere in Australia, it's safe to say that running a Rotax Max with MG Yellows does not comply with any Rotax Max classes in Australia.

Anybody out there that still thinks you can claim a lap record on an illegal tyre, might be just the right person to direct me to the airport, where one can watch the flying pigs.

Jon
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On 02/12/2007, at 4:25 PM, Ben Bey wrote:

Jon,
Why don’t you give it a rest, we are sick to death of listening to your bullshit.
I for one was very disappointed with your lack of respect to OUR club by a NO SHOW at our presentation night, particularly in view of the fact that one of your drivers had not only won his class but had also won the driver of the year award. I think that that is a greater achievement than some insignificant lap record.
You are really making yourself look like an arsehole, wake up to yourself, the world nor the Superkart clubs revolve around Jon Crook.
Think about your son and the other drivers that drive for the “HYPER” team they must be thoroughly embarrassed by your antics.

I would have thought that Mark Wicks would have been proud to front up to receive his awards, obviously I am wrong.

Dean and the other HYPER team members would thoroughly enjoyed last night’s festivities.

Hope you are very proud of yourself.

Ben Bey
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2 December 2007 5:26:59 PM, Jon Crooke wrote:

Fantastic Ben, that's great news. It hadn't even crossed my mind that Mark might win "Driver of the Year". I'll put it up on the web site ASAP.

I can't speak for any Hyper drivers, but I think Wicksey had a previous engagement.
I'm sure all the Hyper guy's tried to move mountains to get there.
As you say, they would have "thoroughly enjoyed last night’s festivities."

As for my lack of respect for the club, well, you'll just have to get used to that.

Jon Crooke

Jon Crooke, attempting to drag the VSKC, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century.

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This thread has now moved on - to talk about control tyres.
Any further emails regarding lap records will still appear here.
To be continued.................

QUOTE OF THE WEEK
Re: the Oran Park race meeting above - Nov 2007.
"NO fast Rotax driver was there anyway"
"Rolf Greve, Vice President- VIctorian Superkart Club"!!
The above quote is in contention for quote of the year.

"It's hard to soar like and eagle, when you're surrounded by turkey's."